0:1515 secondsOkay. Okay. This is it. Before we jump in, I'm excited. I'm so excited. Before we jump in, I want to set a little context for why we're having this 0:2424 secondsconversation. Marshall recently released uh a little earlier this year the 2026 thinking it was an ebook and he's gonna 0:3232 secondstell us a little bit about that. So um that really got me going man. I was like I read it and then I highlighted it 0:4040 secondsagain and then I went back over it yesterday and I'm like this thing is this is gold. Okay. And I want to talk about what stood out for me. Um I just 0:4949 secondsgot to say I love the fact that it was not a quick fix list. It was not a do these five things and your shop will 0:5656 secondsgrow or you'll sell more promo than the rest of the world. You really dove in deep and I can't wait to unpack that. 1:031 minute, 3 secondsAnd and one of my big takeaways was really about how your customers see you and why that's the starting line that 1:121 minute, 12 secondsdetermines almost everything. So this is going to be a great conversation. This is going to be about the identity of whether you're in print, 1:201 minute, 20 secondspromo, or apparel. this applies. And so today, I can't wait to unpack this, what all of this means with my good friend 1:281 minute, 28 secondsMarshall Atkinson. Marshall, let's talk about it. How are you, my friend? 1:321 minute, 32 secondsI'm doing awesome. What? And I can't wait to get into this. I'm like a racehorse in the gate at the Kentucky 1:391 minute, 39 secondsDerby just waiting for the bell to go off. Right. 1:421 minute, 42 secondsLove that. Love that. Well, the bell is going off. So, Marshall, there could be a few people that don't know you or don't know what you do. So, who are you and what do you do? 1:501 minute, 50 secondsWell, uh, my name is Marshall Atinson. 1:521 minute, 52 secondsI've been in the decorated apparel space since 1993. 1:561 minute, 56 secondsUh, I've done a lot of stuff and work for some companies, but right now I'm a business coach. So, I help shops uh find 2:042 minutes, 4 secondsclarity and uh, and make effective changes so they can be more profitable, they can be more effective, they can do the things 2:132 minutes, 13 secondsthat they want to do. But somehow there's this Gordian knot that's got them all crazy and they can't figure it 2:202 minutes, 20 secondsout. And my job is to come in and help them with that basically by asking lots of questions that they never thought of. 2:292 minutes, 29 secondsRight. 2:302 minutes, 30 secondsThat's that's my role as a question asker. Okay. Ah professional question asker. 2:362 minutes, 36 secondsThat's me. Right. And then we have lots of conversations and through that we strategize and we find we find the way you know and um so 2:452 minutes, 45 secondsthat's kind of what I do and I would and if if you're watching this and you have that problem let's talk 2:522 minutes, 52 secondslisten to this combo and then we'll make sure to have your information so people can reach out. Also you're co-founder of shirt lab which is near and dear to my 2:592 minutes, 59 secondsheart and uh we've known each other for the better part of I want to say at least we're coming up on about 10 years. 3:053 minutes, 5 secondsI remember reaching out to you at one point saying, "I'm kind of stuck. I'm kind of lost." You went through this. 3:113 minutes, 11 secondsAnd then we both kind of connected again through another really near and dear to our heart organization, the Promo Kitchen. And so you were a chef and and 3:203 minutes, 20 secondsI am too. And so So anyway, um let's I think we really bonded with the uh the Twitter on Thursday thing. 3:293 minutes, 29 secondsYes, that's right. What was that called again? It was promo chat. 3:323 minutes, 32 secondsPromo chat. Yes, promo chat. That was the thing. And I couldn't wait for promo chat. I was so excited and I was so 3:413 minutes, 41 secondsbummed when heard that. So I know we had a good run. We went four years. So it was a lot. So lots of fun. So 3:493 minutes, 49 secondsOkay. So back to our interview, back to the questions, back to your 2026 thinking ebook. What's the official title? Because I call it thinking, but I I think you had a 3:583 minutes, 58 seconds2026 thinking. How shops will win, stall, or fail in 2026. That's the full name. Okay. 4:064 minutes, 6 secondsIt's a mouthful. I just call it thinking also. 4:084 minutes, 8 secondsOkay. Okay. Well, you know how we tend to do that. So, most of the people that you interviewed, you you basically just asked a series of questions. You do you 4:174 minutes, 17 secondsdid what you do. You asked great questions and you listened and you recorded those and then you were sifting through all of those answers looking for patterns or or what was the Okay. 4:274 minutes, 27 secondsSo my goal, so the whole genesis of this book was around Thanksgiving of last 4:344 minutes, 34 secondsyear. One of my coaching clients, we're just having a conversation on a call like you do and they go, "Hey, what do 4:414 minutes, 41 secondsyou think next year's going to be like?" And that really after the call, that really got me thinking because I know what I I have my own personal opinion. 4:504 minutes, 50 secondsWhat do I think everybody thinks? 4:534 minutes, 53 secondsYeah. What about other people? So, I sent out I mean I've got a pretty good list of folks. I've been in it around. I sent out an email to 400 and something 5:025 minutes, 2 secondspeople and said, "Hey, I'm doing this thing. Would you like to participate? 5:075 minutes, 7 secondsHere's sign up, right?" And my goal was to get to a hundred. 5:125 minutes, 12 secondsThat was my goal. Have aundred conversations. And I got 90 something people booked. And because of scheduling 5:205 minutes, 20 secondsand holidays and stuff, I only ended up interviewing 88, right? That was my that's the official number was 88, right? Okay. 5:285 minutes, 28 secondsAnd I interviewed people mostly in the US, but several other countries. And most of these were conversations that 5:365 minutes, 36 secondswere about 30 minutes. The longest I had was 90 minutes. And about three or four people, we just couldn't make the the 5:455 minutes, 45 secondsZoom call work. So they I just sent them the questions and they wrote me the answers back. Okay. Okay. I asked everybody the same 10 questions. 5:535 minutes, 53 secondsOkay. 5:535 minutes, 53 secondsAnd then that was like priming the pump and then all of the gold came from the followup from whatever they said. And uh 6:036 minutes, 3 secondswhich is I think this the way I chose to do it was more difficult but it had a bigger payoff because I could have just 6:116 minutes, 11 secondssent a survey and then you would have gotten a B or C or maybe a sixword essay answer and that would have just been like nothing, right? 6:226 minutes, 22 secondsYeah. 6:226 minutes, 22 secondsGoing deep on something for 10 minutes about this thing or whatever they're talking about was the best. And 6:316 minutes, 31 secondsit was amazing. and it was awesome and thank you for including me. I'm sure I have very little to add except maybe the clarity. I'm all in. I love those words. 6:386 minutes, 38 secondsYou use similar words that I do and clarity before creation has kind of been both of our mantras lately, right? 6:456 minutes, 45 secondsUm but I love the fact that you did go deep and I'm so grateful that you did and I I hope that you'll be willing to share this the link. I'm willing to 6:526 minutes, 52 secondsshare it, but I do want your permission first. Oh yeah. 6:556 minutes, 55 secondsFor anybody that's Okay. And then I also want to go on the record and say I was not the guy that went 90 minutes. I know that's going to shock everybody, but I did not. 7:037 minutes, 3 secondsYou were you were about an hour. 7:057 minutes, 5 secondsI was mindful of the time and we were approaching an hour. I was like, "Oh crap, we've already gone too far. We better cut this off, right?" Um, and somewhere in there, I'm sure we 7:127 minutes, 12 secondstalked about tacos. But we're not going to talk about tacos now. But I do want to zoom out for just a second because the big impact that you made to me and 7:207 minutes, 20 secondsand you expressed this when we were we had a little uh a fun drive time on our way over to the Long Beach Impression show and we were bantering back and 7:287 minutes, 28 secondsforth on this and you introduced this thing called the relationship maturity model and I had not heard it framed that way and it really hit me not probably as 7:377 minutes, 37 secondshard as it hit you because we had a deep discussion on this. You know, when you have five and a half hours to kill, you you end up talking a lot about things that are important. And this this was 7:457 minutes, 45 secondsone of them. And it isn't about it really for me, the way I understood it, it wasn't about how good your shop is or how large your shop. And by the way, 7:547 minutes, 54 secondswhen I say shop, I do want everyone to know this conversation that Marshall had was primarily directed with apparel decorators in the apparel decoration 8:018 minutes, 1 secondindustry. Doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to folks that are in promo. 8:058 minutes, 5 secondsdoesn't mean that people that are in in in branded merch or or print it this applies. So just because we might say 8:138 minutes, 13 secondsshop does not mean we're only talking about people who decorate apparel. So that's a little caveat. 8:198 minutes, 19 secondsTo be to be clear, I also talked to promo folks, right? Yeah. There you go. 8:238 minutes, 23 secondsI talked to I talked and they're in the back of the book if you want to know who I talked to. I don't have to go through that, but there were some major promo 8:318 minutes, 31 secondspeople who helped out with this also. So Okay. and other business providers, other consultants, other industries. 8:378 minutes, 37 secondsYeah, there were m equipment manufacturers, there were ink people, there were like uh t-shirt manufacturers that are actually making the shirt. I 8:458 minutes, 45 secondstried to get the whole perspective, not just from the decorator point of view because I thought it was important to get 8:538 minutes, 53 secondsthe world that we're in, not just one point of view. That's that was my goal with the book was to ask everybody that 9:029 minutes, 2 secondsaffects everything how they see it, right? 9:069 minutes, 6 secondsAnd what I what I learned, right, was that there was a lot of commonality in the thinking. 9:139 minutes, 13 secondsUh but there was also these crazy tangents that went this way. And some of that was based on their role. Some of 9:229 minutes, 22 secondsthat was based on their where they live, geography, right? Some of that was based on their political stripe, right? How they see the world through politics, 9:319 minutes, 31 secondsright? So, okay. Right. 9:339 minutes, 33 secondsIt was a very interesting discussion. A lot of times I tried to be really neutral. I just wanted to ask just the facts, man. Just the facts. 9:419 minutes, 41 secondsJust the facts. And in the book, I share the 10 questions I asked. And then I also share my um how I did follow-up 9:499 minutes, 49 secondsquestions which are the basic you know uh tell me more right that kind of thing help me understand tell me more right 9:579 minutes, 57 secondswhy is that important those are the those are the things I ask all the time so okay perfect so thank you for that 10:0410 minutes, 4 secondscontext so this is really my first question it it's a question that's framed around identity versus effort it has to do with this relationship 10:1210 minutes, 12 secondsmaturity model I want you to walk us through the model But I want to make this one teeny point that for me this this wasn't about how good a a shop or 10:1910 minutes, 19 secondshow good a business is. It was really how they are experiencing it which I thought was really insightful. So it's 10:2710 minutes, 27 secondsnot it's not just an effort thing. And so but walk us through this model why y why did it make such an impact on you? 10:3510 minutes, 35 secondsWell the relationship maturity model I did not coin that term. That's actually a thing. You can Google it. Right. 10:4210 minutes, 42 secondsOkay. And uh so I kept hearing these different conversations about why they were struggling or why they were 10:5010 minutes, 50 secondssuccessful. And I all the follow-up questions I asked kind of like it was like an archaeological dig where I was 10:5810 minutes, 58 secondsremoving the dirt and finding the dinosaur bones, right? About why these things were happening to these shops. 11:0511 minutes, 5 secondsAnd what became clear is that a lot of people are in there's like five or six levels. They were stuck in level one, 11:1411 minutes, 14 secondswhich is really just being transactional, right? Everything was about price. Everything was about just the not really helping, not really doing 11:2311 minutes, 23 secondsanything. They were just stuck at level one. Okay? And they could have been in business for 20 years. They could have a 11:3011 minutes, 30 secondswhole bunch of autos. They could be a promo uh distributor, right? They're just transactional in nature and everything is about just one thing which 11:3911 minutes, 39 secondsis price right and frankly that's you know Seth Goden one of our heroes right he says right if the people who are all 11:4911 minutes, 49 secondsabout price is only because they have nothing else to talk about right so they have they they don't view anything of 11:5711 minutes, 57 secondsanything else but just price okay and uh so a lot of times that's where they struggle and And I also talked to 12:0612 minutes, 6 secondspeople, right, who were crystal clear. I mean, like with laser beam focus on 12:1512 minutes, 15 secondstheir ideal customer, right? I talked to this one person who told me, "Unless they're spending $50,000 a month with 12:2312 minutes, 23 secondsme, I don't even want to talk to them." Right. Yeah. 12:2612 minutes, 26 secondsSo, like, how's that for shoring up who you're going to talk to? Right. And so it's just really looking at things for a different perspective. And what I 12:3512 minutes, 35 secondslearned more than anything was, and this is just a real quick takeaway, is 12:4212 minutes, 42 secondssure people who the transactional folks or whatever, they're seen as vendors and they struggle because they're a vendor. 12:5112 minutes, 51 secondsThey're on the vendor list. They're as a vendor and they're replaceable, right? Yeah. And it doesn't matter if 13:0013 minutesyou've had a relationship or how good a work you do or whatever. You're only seen as a vendor, right? So, it's basically what have you done for me 13:0813 minutes, 8 secondslately? You know, it doesn't take a whole lot for somebody to go, you know, that's they relate on that by a day. I'm 13:1513 minutes, 15 secondsjust going to go find somebody else, right? Even though you've done work for them for 10 years. And then there's 13:2213 minutes, 22 secondsother folks I talk to, right, who work really super hard on being a partner. 13:3013 minutes, 30 secondsAnd the partners, right, are irreplaceable to their customer, right? 13:3613 minutes, 36 secondsMeaning they can't do business without this shop or this business or this promo distributor. They can't do anything 13:4413 minutes, 44 secondswithout them, okay? Because they're so ingrained in everything. In fact, nothing even goes out for bid because they're helping pick 13:5313 minutes, 53 secondsout the color or manufacturing the blank or designing the thing or working on next year's line of whatnot. Right. 14:0114 minutes, 1 secondRight. They're doing all that with them. 14:0514 minutes, 5 secondsRight. So, there is no anything. And I talked to a couple shops that are so ingrained, they actually 14:1314 minutes, 13 secondshave an office in their customers building. 14:1714 minutes, 17 secondsI want you to imagine that level of bad, right? 14:2214 minutes, 22 secondsSo, you're not shopping when when you're when you're apparel person has they're in your building, you're in, man. 14:3114 minutes, 31 secondsYeah. You pretty much locked that one down. Yeah. 14:3414 minutes, 34 secondsYeah. Yeah. So, so what I'm saying is is that when we look at this stuff, there are levels of where you are. And some of 14:4214 minutes, 42 secondsthese folks, they didn't have to be ginormous businesses to have this 14:4914 minutes, 49 secondsbetter relationship, right? Which is that you are a partner, right? 14:5414 minutes, 54 secondsAnd so that company or that organization or nonprofit or whatever can't function without you because you're so intertwined with everything. Mhm. 15:0715 minutes, 7 secondsSo when we think about our own businesses and if you're watching this, think about your business, right? Are you a partner or are you a vendor? 15:1515 minutes, 15 secondsAnd if you're a vendor, what do you need to do to shift gears to become partner 15:2215 minutes, 22 secondslevel? That's the big takeaway with that chapter. 15:2615 minutes, 26 secondsYeah. Deep deep stuff. Good stuff. Was there anything above or better than a partner? Was there another Can you level 15:3415 minutes, 34 secondsup? I try to simplify, but you know there's there's folks like you know like you know they're not buying blanks from 15:4215 minutes, 42 secondsSanmar or SNS because they're manufacturing the shirts that they're going to decorate. Right. I talked to a 15:4915 minutes, 49 secondsshop uh in Canada that makes they're completely vertical. They make all of their stuff and they decorate it and they sell it. 15:5815 minutes, 58 secondsThat's one way to go. Yeah. 16:0016 minutesYeah. Well, they they they is an amazing business, right? I've actually been been up there and visited them before. But, you know, so it's like one of these 16:0816 minutes, 8 secondsthings where you know, you don't have to do things like everybody else. Mhm. 16:1516 minutes, 15 secondsRight. And love that. 16:1616 minutes, 16 secondsWhat are you going to do? How are you going to be different? And I think yeah, an amazing thing when you really kind of find that little thread and keep pulling 16:2516 minutes, 25 secondsit and then you build something that's, you know, that's completely unlike anything that anybody's doing. And then 16:3216 minutes, 32 secondsthat makes you special because Oh yeah. 16:3416 minutes, 34 secondsYou're you're above what everybody else is doing. Yep. You're you're back to Seth Goden. 16:4016 minutes, 40 secondsYou you became the purple cow and you are you can't unsee it once you see it. So you really are rare and unique and 16:4716 minutes, 47 secondsyou've differentiated on all of that. So cool. I'm so glad that we've had that quick conversation. Really does set the frame. Follow up to that. Where do you 16:5516 minutes, 55 secondsthink most shops think they are versus where they actually are? 17:0017 minutesI think a lot of people are stuck at being transactional. Okay. Yeah. 17:0417 minutes, 4 secondsAnd and um so um you know they like to think that they're partners, but they kind of 17:1017 minutes, 10 secondsthey Yeah. Well, here's the thing is they really feel well I've been in business for 20 years and I've you know all this stuff, right? But 17:1917 minutes, 19 secondsyou know in a drop of a hat they'll lose a client, right? 17:2517 minutes, 25 secondsOkay. And there's other like there one of the levels, right? is about people who were such great they're fantastic at 17:3317 minutes, 33 secondsembroidery and they're fantastic at printing but all they get is the really difficult stuff 17:4017 minutes, 40 secondsright and one of the people I interviewed said to me that if you only get the difficult stuff you don't really 17:4917 minutes, 49 secondshave a good relationship you are basically somebody's insurance policy and that isn't a good place to be as a business model. 17:5817 minutes, 58 secondsGreat insight. Yeah. 17:5917 minutes, 59 secondsAnd and uh so yeah, and the book basically is just what people told me and I'm just giving you their answers. Right. 18:0718 minutes, 7 secondsI know. But it's so insightful. It's so great and it's relevant and it's timely and that's why I couldn't wait to have this discussion. Okay. Thank you for that. Transitioning to question two. 18:1618 minutes, 16 secondsWant to talk a little bit about what's actually working. Um I know that in in the book you used the word tension. 18:2218 minutes, 22 secondsThere was a lot of tension in what you wrote and how people felt. These were their feelings. So, we can't really argue with them. It was their perspective, 18:3018 minutes, 30 secondswhich is fair and fine, and we're not we're also not judging them. But the tension and how people were feeling stuck or maybe they felt like they had 18:3818 minutes, 38 secondsjust been on this, you know, treadmill, the rat race, the chase. Some people felt burned out, you know, according to the quotes that I read. But I'm curious, 18:4718 minutes, 47 secondsyou know, there's always going to be that no matter no matter what the economic winds are blowing, there's always going to feel people feel stuck, people feel burned out. But I'd like to, 18:5518 minutes, 55 secondsyou know, let's let's look the other direction. I'm curious about where did you see some hope? Where did you see some momentum? Yeah. What were some of 19:0319 minutes, 3 secondsthe businesses doing that made you go, "Okay, this this this gal has got it figured out." Well, the people that are really doing 19:1119 minutes, 11 secondswell, okay, are all about their customer and understanding their customer and everything is about their customer. The 19:1919 minutes, 19 secondspeople I think that struggle a little bit, it's all about them and they're just trying to sell them stuff. Wow. Let that land. Hold on. Hold on. Let that 19:2719 minutes, 27 secondsland. Wow. Okay. So, on a scale of one to 10, how obsessed are they? The winners, the ones that are crushing, how 19:3519 minutes, 35 secondsobsessed are they on a scale of 1 to 10 with their customer? Are they uh they're they're they're Let's just do uh spinal tap. They're at 11. Okay. 19:4419 minutes, 44 secondsOkay. They turn it up to 11. Okay. I love that. 19:4619 minutes, 46 secondsSo, so um and uh to the point where they're obsessive about it, right? And 19:5319 minutes, 53 secondsum and this doesn't mean that they're a big company, you know, uh I've talked to some shops that are, you know, they're 20:0220 minutes, 2 secondsmaybe a million or two million in revenue at the best, right? But they're doing really well and they don't uh 20:0920 minutes, 9 secondsthey're very um they understand exactly where they are and what they want and what they need and they're very profitable and they don't they don't um 20:1920 minutes, 19 secondsthey don't they don't struggle like everybody. intentional. They're intentional about what they intentional about what they do, right? 20:2520 minutes, 25 secondsAnd um so and this means they have an ideal customer in the back of their head. They know everything about them. 20:3420 minutes, 34 secondsThey talk to them all the time. They go visit them. They're all about that relationship. They're building that relationship. They're all about being a 20:4220 minutes, 42 secondspartner, not a vendor, right? And uh and they will do anything to make these people their number just their number 20:5120 minutes, 51 secondsone, right? And um and because people buy, you can think it's about numbers and metrics and all that stuff. People 21:0021 minutesbuy on emotion, right? More than anything, right? So are you helping me succeed or not? Right? 21:0821 minutes, 8 secondsSolving my problem. 21:0921 minutes, 9 secondsSolving my problems or not. eliminate the friction for me or are you just trying to sell me? 21:1421 minutes, 14 secondsYeah. And and people are, you know, they're they're using all the tools, right? They're doing, you know, some people specialize in one particular 21:2321 minutes, 23 secondsdecoration method, some people are all about online stores, some people are about programs and fulfillment. You know 21:3121 minutes, 31 secondswhat I heard is the people who were really um focused on their customers and giving 21:3921 minutes, 39 secondstheir customers a better experience, giving them something they can't get from anybody else. Um they uh have no 21:4821 minutes, 48 secondscompetition because they're doing things at a completely different level than just that guy on the corner that's just printing the shirts. 21:5721 minutes, 57 secondsYeah, I love that. That's great distinction. Great answer. Thank you. I also have to believe that they they have a sh they have shifted their thinking. 22:0622 minutes, 6 secondsA so it's it's a mindset and it's follow-up action, right, to build those key relationships. 22:1222 minutes, 12 secondsDefinitely. Right. It's a lot of effort and it is a lot of effort. 22:1722 minutes, 17 secondsBut let me tell you, they've got processes. They know what they're doing. 22:2022 minutes, 20 secondsThey they they have their way of whatever their way is, right? 22:2522 minutes, 25 secondsAnd they're always thinking about how we can make it better. And the other thing is they're doing a lot of adjusting. And 22:3222 minutes, 32 secondsum and one of the one of the most insightful things I learned as I was talking with these people uh if you want 22:3922 minutes, 39 secondsto go into this is that I think this industry has somewhat of an identity 22:4622 minutes, 46 secondscrisis where um and what I mean by that is we have long built our industry based on volume. 22:5722 minutes, 57 secondsThe thinking is about volume. The equipment is about volume. The trade shows are about volume. You know, if you look at the equipment's all about how 23:0523 minutes, 5 secondsmany autos you have and all that stuff, right? Okay. 23:0823 minutes, 8 secondsAnd I can tell you that your customers don't care about that at all. How many autos you have, they don't care, right? 23:1623 minutes, 16 secondsWhat color is your auto, they don't care, right? And what they want more than anything, right, is they want 23:2323 minutes, 23 secondsthings now. They want things today. And what's been happening for quite a long time and Mark Cudre our buddy's been 23:3123 minutes, 31 secondstalking about this for 10 12 years now is we're moving to and we're here now to the unit of one 23:3923 minutes, 39 secondsright is print on demand the unit of one right and so we used to get and I've done them just gigantic orders right and 23:4723 minutes, 47 secondsnow what we're not getting is those gigantic orders what we're getting now is lots of smaller orders in a row crypto 23:5523 minutes, 55 secondsforever ever, right? And uh so when everything is built on volume on big on big things on skids of shirts and all of 24:0424 minutes, 4 secondsthat stuff and now suddenly it's about how do I do that when every order is only one shirt or two shirts it the math doesn't work. Okay. 24:1424 minutes, 14 secondsYeah. Flip the model. 24:1624 minutes, 16 secondsYeah. And so what's happening is there's shops who have fully embraced that idea, 24:2324 minutes, 23 secondsright? and uh they've changed their business. They changed how they work. 24:2724 minutes, 27 secondsThey changed the math. They're looking at their math, which is the thing this industry hates to do is the math, right? 24:3324 minutes, 33 secondsAnd they look at their math. They look at the data. They look at the metrics. 24:3624 minutes, 36 secondsThey talk to their customers. They understand what's going on and they're building things for them. 24:4224 minutes, 42 secondsAnd what's interesting is newer people are coming into this industry because they're not legacy, okay? And the new 24:5024 minutes, 50 secondspeople aren't jaded by how we've always done it, right? Because I've got my screen printer glasses on and everything has to be screen printing because I'm 24:5824 minutes, 58 secondsback in my day, Marshall, we used to and so so they're they're doing DTF transfers with a heat press in their 25:0625 minutes, 6 secondsbasement or the kitchen or some people aren't even doing any of the production just like promo. They just outsource everything and they just make the money. 25:1425 minutes, 14 secondsOkay. And we're seeing more and more and more of that. Now, is screen printing going away? No, because we'll always have large orders, right? But what's happening is we're segmenting. 25:2625 minutes, 26 secondsWe're you're seeing a lot of segmentation, right? So, contract printers are getting more work and more 25:3225 minutes, 32 secondsvolume, right? And the the uh the normal shop, average shop guy on the corner, 25:3925 minutes, 39 secondsright, is still trying to make the math work for how it used to be five years ago or whatever, right? And that math 25:4625 minutes, 46 secondsdoesn't work anymore, which is and then also with supply chain 25:5325 minutes, 53 secondsand and tariffs and uh all the other stuff, you know, we've probably got 18 or 20% more price increase than last 26:0226 minutes, 2 secondsyear. And some people haven't kept up with that, right? And so what happens is all your profit gets eaten away by all 26:0926 minutes, 9 secondsthese little minnows. everything. Every time you know something happens, there's a little chunk of that profit missing, right? And so what happens is shops end 26:1826 minutes, 18 secondsup working really super hard and at the end of the year that pile of money that used to be there isn't there. Their sales could be exactly the same, but 26:2626 minutes, 26 secondswhat happens is they're not making the same money that it used to make because they're still trying to use the old math. 26:3326 minutes, 33 secondsThose evil men those evil minions of of minnows, right? So, what we need is to really 26:4026 minutes, 40 secondsunderstand how customers are buying and what's happening. And then we have to adjust. And if you and I I hate to say it, if you don't adjust, you're going to get left behind. 26:5126 minutes, 51 secondsOh, you have to say it. You have to say it. 26:5326 minutes, 53 secondsAnd and well, people don't want to hear that. And and the the the and they need to hear it, but the but the but the 27:0027 minutescompanies that have adjusted, right, they're clean they're cleaning up, man. 27:0527 minutes, 5 secondsYeah. I love that. There's always a positive. There's always the other side of the stick. You pick up that stick. 27:1027 minutes, 10 secondsYou have to, like you say, you have to which where are you going to position yourself? 27:1427 minutes, 14 secondsAre you gonna are you going to be eyes wide open and do the math? And are you willing to change? And change is really hard as we all know. It's super 27:2227 minutes, 22 secondsdifficult. And and I love this discussion.